Legally Trustworthy with Autumn Witt Boyd

Dusti Arab

Hey, everybody, and welcome back to referral worthy. Today I am joined by Autumn Witt Boyd who is a lawyer who owns her own firm, the Autumn Witt Boyd firm. And I’m just so thrilled to have you here today. Autumn, thank you so much for joining me.

Autumn Witt Boyd

Thank you for inviting me, Dusti. I’m excited to chat. 

Dusti  

Okay, so as somebody who does legal for the online business space specifically first of all, like God, love you. Second, how did you get into this? Like, that’s such an interesting career path. And I feel like you’ve been in this for like, a decent amount of time at this point.

Autumn  

Almost nine years. Yeah. It’s wild. 

Dusti  

Nine years. That’s amazing. So tell me tell me how you got started as a lawyer and then how you ended up making that transition? Yeah, so

Autumn

I, um, I was a theater kid. So I always have been interested in arts and music. So I had dreams of being a copyright lawyer. So I went to law school in Nashville at Vanderbilt. You know, wanting to be maybe like a music lawyer. I tested that out. I did some summer clerkships. And it turns out that a lot of entertainment law is very boring. It’s just like reviewing contracts and negotiating deals. And so you know, to my 22 year old self that’s very boring. So all the like sexy, exciting stuff was happening in litigation. It’s like being going to the courtroom, you know, the flashy, you know, exciting. And so, you know, being a theater kid, I’m very comfortable being in front of crowds and public speaking. So I pursued that path instead, but I always was still interested in copyright and trademark and kind of the intellectual property side of the law. So I worked for a judge. That’s what brought me to where I live now in Chattanooga, Tennessee, which is not a Music City, not an entertainment Capitol at all. But I came here for a two year job with the judge and just kind of fell in love with the town and decided to stay. So I worked at a couple different like very normal boring law firms. I did commercial litigation, which is basically helping old white men get richer. But I always had still that bug of wanting to do copyright law. And I just got lucky. I think a lot of career stories are like this. Like it’s kind of a combination of determination and luck. So I got lucky. We had a case that came into the law firm where I was working, and the only reason I was assigned to it is because it was in front of the judge that I had formerly worked with. So it was a copyright case it involved infringement of a painting. And so that allowed me to do kind of all the things that I was really interested in and had started to become good at. Long story short, I was hired by the firm that was working on that case, and they did just copyright litigation, mostly for photographers, so it was all visual art. And it was really a dream job. I worked there almost eight years. I learned a ton. There was a ton of travel, because we were litigating all over the country and it was very high pressure, high stress, quick deadlines working till midnight or 2am, a lot. In there, I had twins who are now 12. And so like what seemed like very glamorous and fun in the beginning became much less so as I had two little people and a husband and a house to run and all those things. So I kind of hit burnout. We took a case to trial. Most of our cases had settled, but is it in Philadelphia. So I was gone for almost a whole month I came back and forth a little bit but that was just really rough on the whole family. So decided to do something different looked around and not see anything that looked interesting. I kind of gotten spoiled because I was working from home in that in that job, which is at that time was unheard of in law. So I was like I don’t want to go back to a desk. I don’t want to you know, be chained to a law firm again. So I decided to start my own thing and that was 2015 and just like fell into the online space like that was not a grand plan. I didn’t even know this existed. I didn’t know anything about coaches or courses or anything.

Dusti  

God that is so fascinating, because you’re right, like I love what you said about it being like determination and luck, because like you were not going you are not going to fail like you’re just not the kind of person who I think like has it in them to fail for very long it’s something like this once you pick it and I mean as a fellow theater kid, like I get it like when you when you find you’re thing and it just like it just like okay, like if I ain’t gonna be on stage this is what I’m gonna fucking do. Yes, exactly. I love I love everything about it. So that first client, I mean, I have another friend who is, opening a firm now, like kind of, you know, mid career. He’s like 45 and he’s getting ready to start that. And so I’m having this conversation right now with him as well actually, like, how he’s branching out and how he’s like starting to set things up. So like, how did you get that first client though, like in the online space?

Autumn

Well, so I’m kind of a hustler. I don’t do anything- I don’t do anything halfway. I’m a very hard worker. So I like taught myself marketing and sales. Like I didn’t have any background in any of that. But I was listening to tons of podcasts. I read a- I should go find what this book was. I got it from the library, and it basically described a sales funnel, but it was like more geared towards consultants. And so it’s not called a sales funnel. But it was basically like you write a book or you have a brochure and then you sell them something small. Anyway, so I had this whole marketing plan when I started my firm, which was mostly just personal connection. So I love that your podcast is called referral worthy because that’s still to this day like we’re over a million dollars in annual revenue. And that’s still how we get most of our clients is referrals. So I like sent a mailer to everyone whose address I could find from like law school, my local connections, just like I am open for business, and here are the things that I do like I would love for you to help me spread the word and then I set myself a goal to have five coffees or lunches every week when

Dusti  

That’s my favorite thing. 

Autumn

And I literally would just email, I don’t do this anymore, but like I joined the local Chamber of Commerce and like I would go to meetings, just be like, Hi, Autumn I’m a lawyer, and just like, tell people what I do. And I got clients that way. My very first client, I found because another lawyer had gotten my mailer. Like who I kind of knew a little bit I knew his wife better than him. But he got a referral and it was something he didn’t do. And so he’s like, and it was a copyright case. It was like literally the exact thing that I had been doing. I know and it was like so it was a wonderful first thing that happened because I was you know, I always worked under other lawyers. I’d never made decisions on my own. But I it was something I could do in my sleep. So it was very easy to be like okay, this is all me but like I know I can do this. Again his met like whatever you put things out to the universe, but also I worked really hard. It’s like a snowball it continued to grow from there.

Dusti  

Totally. I feel like I didn’t correct me if I’m wrong, but it did not take you very long to like, I mean, as far as I’m concerned, like you are the lawyer in the online space, like for like this little corner of the internet. And your clientele reflects that. Like I mean, you have clientele that people on this podcast have absolutely heard of amongst them. Amy Porterfield. So how, how did that happen? Was that really just like you happen to like a friend of a friend, like was it like that greater referral network?

Autumn

100%. Yeah. So I mean, I’ll tell you the Amy Porterfield story because it’s like an example of what has happened a number of times. I have a dear friend NAmed Corinne Crabtree who you may have heard of,, she runs a weight loss, a big weight loss, coaching business, and then she’s also now doing business coaching. And she and I had been friends since like 2007 because I was a member of her weight loss community. I found her through weightwatchers a million years ago. That said, We’ve been friends. I know we’ve been friends and she had what she would call like, a hobby business for a long time. But because she lives just down the road from me, we became like IRL friends, and around 2014 When I decided to leave my last job and start my own firm, she went through life coach training, and like really decided to uplevel her business and she is like, dog it like you think I’m a hard worker. She is an incredible hard worker. And so she was like, and Todd Herman’s mastermind and like it’s taken a course with stu and like she was all over the place. And she, like, went up to Amy Porterfield at a conference and was like, I just want to tell you like I took digital course Academy and it’s changed my business like, and then she and Amy developed a friendship and so Corinne ended up introducing me to Amy like long story that there were a couple more steps but yeah.

Dusti  

God, I am so grateful you shared that story, because that is exactly how I’ve grown my business 100% of the way too like, it’s so easy for people to like, you know, to see these people who are just like killing it and from their perspective and being like, Oh, God, how could I ever get a client like that? And it really just comes down to like, doing good work and being a decent person.

Autumn

And asking, like, I asked Corrine to make the connection. And I’ve asked other people make connections who have told me No, and that’s fine. Like I always ask in a way that I’m like, Look, if this doesn’t feel great to you like no worries. Some people have told me like, I’m only tangentially connected to that person. I really can’t make that introduction. It’s like great, no worries. Like, it will come around if it’s meant to come around. But yeah, like I hosted a whole dinner in San Diego basically, so that I can have an excuse to invite Amy Porterfield to something and then I like set myself in front of her so that we could chat. And so I mean, it was like very intentional, but not gross.

Dusti  

But not gross. Yeah, That’s badass is what that is like. I mean, you’re like, I know exactly what I want. This is how I’m going to like create this opportunity for myself. And I also get to do this fucking awesome thing. Even if I don’t get the answer I want. Like, that’s incredible. That’s incredible to me.

Autumn

And, you know, we started with something really small. And I didn’t pitch and we weren’t like, I was just trying to kind of get in front of her honestly. But I remember she asked me she you know, Corinne who kind of told her a little bit about me and she was like, so tell me like Who’s your ideal client? I just looked at her. I said, Amy Porterfield. And she was like, oh, okay, change the conversation a little bit.

Dusti  

It’s so like that. I feel like that also goes to show how important it is to know exactly who your ideal client is and for it not to be some like customer avatar exercise that you did one time in a business course. Like knowing exactly who you want to fucking work with. Like specifically like that makes such a massive difference. And then you know, like, at least kind of what you need to do to get there like you have to start building yet.

Autumn

You don’t have a target. You can’t like how are you going to get there? I’ll tell you something else I did early on. I don’t know if you remember the being boss podcast. That Emily cannon Yeah, so that was another like Kismet that I won’t go into I could tell stories all day long, but she would talk about having a hot shit list. She called it her hot shit. 100 back when she was doing like individual one on one services. And I have a hotshot list like that has like my dreamiest dream clients and I’m like I cannot imagine and like this year several of them have like been served up to me on a plate by other connectors that it’s like it’s it’s still exciting like it never is not exciting. All right, someone.

Dusti  

Yeah no, right to be recommended by people who you love and care about and love working with and like, and to continue to be able to open those doors like that. Like that’s the that’s the dream as a small business owner.

Autumn

We do the same. I think that’s really important to mention, too. Like I keep an incredibly robust referral like we call it our refer out list, so that I can keep my ears open. I mean, it it’s not always reciprocal to the same person. But I do feel like what goes around comes around, like, right and so we refer out a ton of work that we’re not, we’re very narrowly focused. We refer out a lot that’s not good for us. And then just if a client said like, oh, I need a copywriter, I need a CFO or whatever. Like, we try and connect people to people, like you said, who are doing good work that we know will take care of them.

Dusti  

Right? Oh, that’s incredible. Well, and you that’s and that’s so interesting. You put that that way because like you guys are a legal business. You’re a law firm. However, you do have these roots in the online marketing community. So you have all these other connections and I mean, and that’s how we met. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. So what are you most excited about in your business right now?

Autumn

Actually, it’s funny, it’s like all intertwine so last year. I had a goal to like really systematize our referral marketing because it has all been like kind of dependent on autumn and where she goes and who she meets and that kind of stuff. So we have been, we’ve been working on it for almost a whole year. Because I was like, I don’t want to put efforts and money and time into this thing. sending gifts, doing like more of putting on joint webinars, like that kind of stuff, to build relationships, but I don’t want to do it if I’m not if I can’t track the ROI, right. So we had to first build a tracking system of like, how do I know like, I want to know who are my top 10 referral sources. And when was the last time I talked to them? Like just so I can make sure and again, not in a gross way, but just like make sure that I am like not letting those relationships kind of die on the vine. Right. So it’s like, well, how do we track that? So we finally got that built. And now we’re actually like starting the plan. Have, we started a newsletter just for our connectors, and we’re going to start like having some fun events and activities. And so I’m really, really excited about that.

Dusti  

I would love hearing as much about that program as you’re comfortable sharing, to be honest, like it’s new.

Autumn

I almost grabbed before I sat down I have a favorite book that is called I’m gonna botch it but it’s something like how to get referrals without asking. Stacy brown Randall is the author and she has a good podcast if you like geeking out about this kind of stuff. But so we kind of loosely and she has a program and stuff that we haven’t done but we’ve kind of loosely follow her idea which is like if you stay top of mind if you do good work. Like you will not have to say like can you introduce me to three friends which feels awful, right? So we Allison who works with me and is our I always forget her title. She is my assistant plus some things. I can’t remember it. Um, she picked her on title and that’s why I can’t remember. But she and I sat down and came up with a plan a year long plan. And so it’s like every quarter and I’m going to logic that I have in front of me but it’s something like the first month we’ll send out a newsletter the second month with like, kind of evaluate who we’ve talked to recently and who needs outreach and we’ll figure that out. And the third month we’ll do some sort of event. So whether that’s like a dinner or cocktail hour or like a joint webinar, something like that to like get us in front of new people. And then it’s kind of like Princeton repeat and then we’ll do some other like we send we send a New Year’s card that’s kind of part of this plan. Like that’s a touch point we sent out like Christmas gifts to some of our top clients like that’s part of the touch point plan.

Dusti  

So fantastic. So it’s online, it’s physical, it’s making sure that like, you don’t have to think so hard about it. Yes.

Autumn

I don’t have to like literally right now. I don’t know if you’re seeing this but like our pipeline at we’re recording this in April. Our pipeline is dry. We have not done anything different. I don’t know what it is. But so I see that and I’m like, Oh, I gotta go beat the bushes. Right. I would like to have to not beat the bushes like I would like for it just to be kind of a steady drumbeat. rather than me having to go like, Oh, I need some I need to get in front of some new people.

Dusti  

Right. Let me go do a podcast sprint. Let me do all the things that we do when business slows down.

Autumn

I have like 20 coffee chats in the next month. I’m just trying to meet new people and none of that’s bad. But I would just like to not have to feel like I’m behind the eight ball a little bit.

Dusti  

Well and as somebody who’s like the face of their business the way that you are. I know like I mean, like you’re exactly the type of client that I work with in that like when you’re the face of your business and it’s a million dollar plus business. When money isn’t coming in, you know, the thing you have to go do is get your face out in front of people because it always does the thing. Right and that gets exhausting. Like it just does. And I mean I have so much admiration and respect for you guys building out this really like like meaty plan to like take care of your people. That’s amazing. 

Autumn

That’s really is the goal like what you said it’s not to like be asking for things all the time. It really is to be helpful and a resource and remind them we exist because whenever we remind people we exist, connections happen like it just is that simple. 

Dusti  

Well and so that everybody is clear here if you go to my resources page right now you can actually Autumn is one of the only people on there. So in addition to like you offering like legal services, you also do templates. We sure do. Okay, tell me more about that and what the thought process was behind that.

Autumn

Um, I went so when I first started working with online businesses, I found them all through like Facebook groups for podcasts, and I was listening to and a lot of them needed the same thing. So it was literally like if I did the same project three times. I was I thought about because you know you hear about passive income. I had thought like, oh, it’d be nice to have a product side to the service business. It’s not as easy as they say, but I started the templates really early for that reason, like I want to start building kind of a deck or something that I can and it’s so easy to sell digital products. So I started out it was just the templates that I was, you know, creating for my clients. I worked with a lot of creatives in the beginning so like copywriters, designers, and so I, just through all the lessons that I learned from talking with them and hearing what the problems were with their clients, I built a really robust template. And so I was like, well, let’s just sell this. It’s not that hard to take kind of the form that we use internally and turn it into a template. And then it’s just grown. We’ve got over 30 templates now, nine years later, and they’re all created by lawyers in our firm, they’re all updated. If we see something change or if we notice an issue, we’ll go update them and we’ll send a little love note to anyone who’s bought it in the past. If there’s a major update, like hey, we updated it, go grab a new copy, with a new language, really intended to be and as we’ve up leveled the firm. We now are working with more Amy Porterfield. So it’s expensive to hire us to work on a contract. So being able to offer something it’s really affordable there 299 and we’ve got a coupon code almost all the time, you can probably find that makes it more affordable and we run sales. So to be able to have a resource to that, you know, business owner at 50k or 100k that really like the ROI on hiring us to write a contract you’re just not gonna see. But I do think it’s really important contracts are the like the legal foundation of almost every business. So it’s kind of twofold.

Dusti  

Absolutely, yeah, that is one of the the things that I mean, I feel like I just hammer into folks like if they’re in their first year or two of business like you do not work outside of a fucking contract. Like you just absolutely do not.

Autumn

Do not start until it’s signed. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dusti  

They pay the invoice and they sign the contract. That is just how it goes.

Autumn

And it’s also become an internal resource for you know, for our attorneys. Like if I’ve got to draft something, it’s almost always we have a template, so we use that as our starting point.

Dusti  

Oh my God, I don’t want to forget about that. That’s awesome. Yeah. internal operations and an external product that I mean, better. That’s kind of what I’m working on. Like on the back end right now. Like we can talk about that later. But oh, man. Okay, so switching gears a little bit because you have such a good eye on these trends. When So for anybody who is curious, Autumn does go live and talks about different like legal issues that are coming up in the space very frequently, particularly on Instagram. So definitely give her a follow over there and go watch this stuff because I watch all of them. Because I think it’s so interesting. I’m not even joking, like, because you see things that I don’t because I’m not a lawyer. So when you’re looking at the space right now like what are like, what are the big like red flag issues you see coming up? Like as of 2024?

Autumn

Yes, so things people no one is talking about. Oh, and I’ll mention, if you are looking for me on Instagram, it’s awbfirm. That’s our handle everywhere. I do have a personal account, but it’s just like pictures of my kids and it’s private. So don’t don’t try to follow that one. You won’t find anything interesting. So two things I’ll mention. One is if you have a team who’s an employee and who’s a contractor and whether you have people classified the right way. The laws are different in every state. So if you you know you Google an article and it says like, if they’re this you do that like there is no blanket answer. So I would say for a newer business, this is a lower risk area for you. But as you are scaling for sure you get to a couple 100,000 Or a million. That is something you need to be paying attention to because here’s how it goes wrong. You have someone leave you there, you fire them or they leave disgruntled, and then they maybe file an unemployment claim but they were a contractor so contractors don’t get unemployment. And now you have you know, maybe some eyes on you from a state they’re like, that’s weird. This you say they’re a contractor. They say they were an employee like so you can get an audit which is painful and expensive. So that’s not great. Or you know, they they can report you the employee if if someone is disgruntled they can say you know, I should have gotten overtime right, you know, owed back pay or write any of those things. So paying attention to that as you grow. And I will often say you can DIY things like contracts 100% employment law is not a DIY area like that, honestly. Yes. And no one talks about also like the expense and the compliance of having team members and lots of states. It is incredibly expensive, and there’s a lot of compliance. So started if you can hire people near you or a handful of states that will keep your legal costs down for sure.

Dusti  

And like I heard, I think last year, the year before, like California’s laws changed drastically and I know like lots of people that was something that they were struggling with. 

Autumn

Yeah, it’s very hard to classify a worker as a contractor in California because California is very pro worker and they want them to have all the benefits of being an employee. 

Dusti  

Totally, which is just also challenging as a small business owner.

Autumn

Very expensive.

Dusti  

Yes.

Autumn

The other thing that we are seeing kind of come down the pipe is the Federal Trade Commission. FTC, is responsible for basically making sure that everyone is their advertisements are truthful that they’re not, you know, advertising things like bait and switch or like, you know, these scammy you know, you’ll make a million dollars in three weeks business claims. So for the long time, they were really only focusing on big fish that I have started to see in the last year or so. They’re going after much smaller businesses. Now I say smaller, like multimillion, but not like 20 or 100 million, which is kind of where they had focused but they’re going after smaller businesses. And I think that I think that’s right, I don’t mind it. But I think it’s because there was such an explosion of online business during and after the pandemic, and a lot of people are being scammed. And so I think they’re trying to make some examples. So that’s another one like that is pretty easy to comply with like, just don’t lie, right?

Dusti  

Don’t lie. Don’t be a dick.

Autumn

Advertising. But there are specific rules around like money back guarantees and some other like, if you’re using testimonials, there is some trickiness there. So, again, not a huge worry if you’re early in your business, but something to keep in mind as you’re scaling, you’re more likely to become on their radar.

Dusti  

Oh, god, that’s so exciting to me. I’m like, Oh, get him again and bring him down.

Autumn

I know.

Dusti  

It just it clears the space for the rest of us who are like doing like legitimate work. It makes me so happy, right? Yeah. Ah, amazing. Okay, so final question. I asked this to everybody who comes on referral worthy for you, what makes somebody a referral worthy business?

Autumn

Um, two things. One, it is very clear what they do and who they do it for. So I know like who to keep them in mind for or like if I’m talking with someone or they say I need you know, I don’t know I help with a book launch. I’m like, oh, you know, XYZ person is great for that rather than just like I do marketing. Like if you’re a generalist, it’s really hard to refer you so like writing a clear. And I know like, Oh, you’re great for a $10 million business but not for like a $500,000. But like kind of knowing the range. of Office offers all that. And number two, like I know you’re gonna do good work, like, either I have had experience with you or I’ve talked with your clients or I have some like, more than just like passing acquaintance with how you take care of your people. And I know like, like if I hear and this has happened like people have gone off of our refer out list if I hear like, oh, they were a nightmare, or like, oh, I can never get them to call me back or whatever. I’m like, Nope, because then that makes me look bad. And that is the goal. Like, the whole referral thing is like my goal. If someone sends me a referral is I want the person who sent them to me to look good. So even if I can’t help them, I make sure I connect them or I send them a resource or I find another referral for them like it never I never want it to just be like nope, sorry.

Dusti  

So good. So good. Yeah. Autumn, thank you so much for joining me for today. For everybody who wants to connect with you where’s the best place I can find you?

Autumn

Our website and has the templates and all the other information. I have a podcast that is not uh, not being published anymore, but is still live. The legal roadmap podcast has tons of good information. And if you’re looking for the q&a sessions that Dusti mentioned, those are on Instagram and Facebook. AWB firm is where you can find all of that and we do. If you join our email list, then you can send your own question in and I will answer it live. You can join or not so that’s all AWB firm.com.

Dusti  

Amazing. All right, everybody. Thank you. So much for listening.